AEons of Death

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 Please balance the Moloch!

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Major Cooke
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:38 pm

Flame RING. Not flame breath.

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"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:19 am

Major Cooke wrote:
Flame RING. Not flame breath.

I don't found it that powerful either, easy to not get hurt at all if you not just gonna try to hug him all the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:20 am

Go stand further away. Watch what happens. Especially if you fly in the air and land. It ALWAYS hits you and there's nothing you can do about it except use a pentagram which are hard to come by.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:25 pm

That ring wasn't meant to be like it turned out to be. Originally, the fire merely surrounded you like Eidolon's bone cage, and only hurt you if you tried to step through them. However, later on, those flames were edited (probably for something else) to make the radius larger, so instead of being a containment field, it turned into an instant death thing as all the flames hit you at once.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:41 pm

Major Cooke wrote:
Go stand further away. Watch what happens. Especially if you fly in the air and land. It ALWAYS hits you and there's nothing you can do about it except use a pentagram which are hard to come by.

Oh you talking about those rare flames that he summons at you?? I just try to run away, it stills does NOT instakill me as people seems to claim, it does like 50 damage to me in armour if I actually react to it. Ironically, he summons those flames at you at very rare chance, for unknown reason. At least for me when I fight him.

The fire ring is not a problem for me either, when he do that, I just can do hide behind obstacle/column/wall/whatever and be safe, but if I happened to fight him in open field, I can just jump constantly when he does that (seems like exploit tho) and receive minimal hit.

The flamethrower (fire breath) is a joke, there is literally NOTHING dangerous about it, easy to dodge, is really slow and range is really low.

Given the fact that it's an rare monster, and given the fact the game is based on DOOM II game where you constantly must save and load so it can remain quite challenging, I'd say he is fine. Oh and by the way, at least for me, he never lives more than 6-10 seconds and I don't even use slot 0 weapons, thus he wouldn't even get a chance to summon those flames at me. If there is still going to happen some nerf to him, then at least definitelly not need to remove of any of his attack completely, and in exchange I'd like to see flamethrower to get some improvement to make it more of that just a joke that is imho way too simple to dodge.

I rather balance the overpowered monsters with even more overpowered weapons, this is my philosophy on how to keep game be FUN and yet balanced; nerfing both elements will turn in to a garbage halo/cod-wannabe like mod, and I sincerely do not want this to happened. And this is one of main elements why I prefer AEOD 3 over AEOD 4, and AEOD 5 over AEOD 6. There are just changes happening in new AEODs that I certainly don't like, especially the ones that has been done to AEOD 6 (like removal of my beloved realm667 enemies and countless amount of weapons unnecessary nerf). It's meaningles to rush for "balance" actually, rather than to plan and develop new interesting and quite powerful weapons in game, because you will NEVER EVER reach the "balance" in this game, at least because balance is a merely subjective matter, merely metaphysical utopia that cannot be achieved absolutely even subjectively, because here or there you wouldn't feel yourself comfortable for sure of it being trully completely balanced or not. That is just a Fact, in fact a fact that has been proven in milleniums. I bet other people want as well to see more new and freshy overpowered and interesting weapons/enemies/attacks in game, rather than nerfed/changed old ones, and especially removal of old ones...
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:37 am

I can't say I've ever had problems with the Moloch. The fire ring attack sure is a quick way to get killed but being constantly on the move has saved my ass every time. Some damage gets taken sure but I cant remember the last time I actually died to the fires. That and the Moloch is on my "kill it before I even realize its there" list.

IMO, if something gets done to the Moloch, I'd say roll back to what Ichor mentioned, make the flames a trap like Eidolon's bone ring attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:04 pm

To be honest, I don't like to seem like the only guy that had problems with this monster but perhaps most of the times I fought him, I did in enclosed spaces and couldn't dodge attacks, plus game sometimes had a nasty habit of spawning the moloch right behind me (supposedly an ambush of teleporting an archvile from monster closet), giving me no time to react to his attacks. Perhaps I have been victim to the energy spheres attack that kills me instantly, while others it seems to the flame attacks that are much easier to dodge and won't kill you instantly.

Now I might say that there have been times where I killed him without taking damage at all but that must have happened only a few times. And I disagree with the monster being easy to kill, it's certainly one of the most deadliest (maybe the deadliest non-boss) monster from the mod. Sure there are a couple of monsters that can deal a ton of damage in a small amount of time but the moloch has the ability to INSTA-KILL you at FULL HEALTH AND ARMOR! How is that fair?

OK I think I had enough ranting but this is my opinion and for me it's a monster that should be definitely balanced. Note that I haven't played AEOD in a while but when I will get back in the upcoming months and start again, I will analyze the monster again. Once again, I probably was just unlucky in those times I fought him.

EDIT: I have never said anything about the flame breath attack. I agree that attack is a joke, it is easy to dodge and it is used when moloch is in short range but he rarely does that attack on me, it most of time did the energy spheres attack that always insta-killed me on contact, with exception of one time mentioned earlier when it took a lot of my health.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:34 pm

FistMarine wrote:
To be honest, I don't like to seem like the only guy that had problems with this monster but perhaps most of the times I fought him, I did in enclosed spaces and couldn't dodge attacks, plus game sometimes had a nasty habit of spawning the moloch right behind me (supposedly an ambush of teleporting an archvile from monster closet), giving me no time to react to his attacks. Perhaps I have been victim to the energy spheres attack that kills me instantly, while others it seems to the flame attacks that are much easier to dodge and won't kill you instantly.

Now I might say that there have been times where I killed him without taking damage at all but that must have happened only a few times. And I disagree with the monster being easy to kill, it's certainly one of the most deadliest (maybe the deadliest non-boss) monster from the mod. Sure there are a couple of monsters that can deal a ton of damage in a small amount of time but the moloch has the ability to INSTA-KILL you at FULL HEALTH AND ARMOR! How is that fair?

OK I think I had enough ranting but this is my opinion and for me it's a monster that should be definitely balanced. Note that I haven't played AEOD in a while but when I will get back in the upcoming months and start again, I will analyze the monster again. Once again, I probably was just unlucky in those times I fought him.

EDIT: I have never said anything about the flame breath attack. I agree that attack is a joke, it is easy to dodge and it is used when moloch is in short range but he rarely does that attack on me, it most of time did the energy spheres attack that always insta-killed me on contact, with exception of one time mentioned earlier when it took a lot of my health.

I'd say Moloch is quite balanced, at least I wouldn't REMOVE or replace any of his attack. Maximum I could change is to give some delay to that summon fire attack, so you could atleast realize he is about to summon those fires so you give second to hide/be ready. Not long-ass one like Arch-Vile have, but around one second only. Personally, I'd change nothing at all, enemies like him is a good excuse for this mod to KEEP weapons being overpoweredly fun.

Moloch is extremely rare and Arch-Vile by itself is quite rare and strong monster itself too. Arch-Vile and Moloch it's like one of those uber soldat minions in RTCW or jumping electric mutants (whatever they both called). Yes they are deadly and tought, they supposed to be bigger and more overpowered than plaer, one minion takes like whole main hero (player) life to kill him and there sometimes two of them at once, makes it even more insanely harder, but this is how enemies supposed to be. Enemies are not just an target that calls "Hey, shoot me please, I'm worthless anyway!" and it dies withing two shots like modern shooters seems to change mindset within us. Those are in fact opponent that try to defend themselves for their own "honor" and "freedom" not any less than our main hero character, and you must rip your ass off in oder to NOT get any damage at all. They MUST to take time to kill too, and you better get some overpowered slot 0 weapons to make it be piece of cake, or just use tactical weapons like smart rabbits and spam them from safe area to get rid of annoying enemies.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:34 am

MaxRideWizardLord wrote:
Enemies are not just an target that calls "Hey, shoot me please, I'm worthless anyway!" and it dies withing two shots like modern shooters seems to change mindset within us. Those are in fact opponent that try to defend themselves for their own "honor" and "freedom" not any less than our main hero character, and you must rip your ass off in oder to NOT get any damage at all. They MUST to take time to kill too, and you better get some overpowered slot 0 weapons to make it be piece of cake, or just use tactical weapons like smart rabbits and spam them from safe area to get rid of annoying enemies.

Whether they're worthless or not, they all scream "SHOOT ME!" Also, honor!? FUCK HONOR. They're demons, they don't have honor! This is DooM! Fight as dirty as you like.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:08 am

Actually I remember one time where I fought two of them in same area (they were both standing on some ledges), managed to kill both of them using Quake 4 railgun while zoomed, only to find out a second later after second moloch died that he got lucky to do the fire ring attack before he died and then I died too. Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:15 pm

I agree; that is so goddamn annoying.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:19 pm

Major Cooke wrote:
MaxRideWizardLord wrote:
Enemies are not just an target that calls "Hey, shoot me please, I'm worthless anyway!" and it dies withing two shots like modern shooters seems to change mindset within us. Those are in fact opponent that try to defend themselves for their own "honor" and "freedom" not any less than our main hero character, and you must rip your ass off in oder to NOT get any damage at all. They MUST to take time to kill too, and you better get some overpowered slot 0 weapons to make it be piece of cake, or just use tactical weapons like smart rabbits and spam them from safe area to get rid of annoying enemies.

Whether they're worthless or not, they all scream "SHOOT ME!" Also, honor!? FUCK HONOR. They're demons, they don't have honor! This is DooM! Fight as dirty as you like.

As being an progressed Satanist and have Demons as friends, this whole statement is extremely offensive for me.

FistMarine wrote:
Actually I remember one time where I fought two of them in same area (they were both standing on some ledges), managed to kill both of them using Quake 4 railgun while zoomed, only to find out a second later after second moloch died that he got lucky to do the fire ring attack before he died and then I died too. Evil or Very Mad

Just like any fire should do. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:14 pm

TRIGGER WARNING! XD

We might or not talk about demons and killing them in the forum Razz

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Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:41 pm

MaxRideWizardLord wrote:
As being an progressed Satanist and have Demons as friends, this whole statement is extremely offensive for me.

DBThanatos wrote:
TRIGGER WARNING!

I don't give a fuck. In fact, I can't give a fuck as a developer, because otherwise, how could I develop for AEoD? Razz

It's all about the butchering and slaughtering of demons because, in the end, they butchered and slaughtered our people.

Karma called. She wants her vengeance back.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:23 pm

DBThanatos wrote:
TRIGGER WARNING! XD

We might or not talk about demons and killing them in the forum Razz

Finally, an understanding person!
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Major Cooke
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:24 pm

Oh yeah I forgot to mention, the ring of fire was removed.

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"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:41 pm

Major Cooke wrote:
Oh yeah I forgot to mention, the ring of fire was removed.

nooooooooo don't ruin the moloch... Crying or Very sad I rather have damage nerf, than completely remove any or some of their attacks/skills/abilities then... Remove some of their attacks is just low.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:46 pm

It's not low, it's balance. He can already one-shot you with just a single stream of his kinetic energy sphere attack.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:55 pm

Major Cooke wrote:
It's not low, it's balance. He can already one-shot you with just a single stream of his kinetic energy sphere attack.

"balance" is never an excuse, the game shouldn't be either balanced toward noobs, really. Then again, the awesome ring attack can be easily avoided if you constantly jumping, which is imho already an even exploit to me. Then again, Ichor said it already was underpowered before, so it turned to be deadly. So why not just bring it back to a version when it was at least less powerful, than remove it completely?? I'm against the enemies being just and stationary targets that shoting generic projectiles at you, all of them...
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:00 pm

Excuse me, but who are you to say balance isn't an excuse? You don't get massive weapons just at the start of map one you know.

It's annoying as hell, and makes the game very agitating to play whenever encountering a moloch. And for the record, you could fly and then land, when a ring would explode around you.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:15 pm

Major Cooke wrote:
Excuse me, but who are you to say balance isn't an excuse? You don't get massive weapons just at the start of map one you know.

It's annoying as hell, and makes the game very agitating to play whenever encountering a moloch. And for the record, you could fly and then land, when a ring would explode around you.

The balance is merely subjective judgement, I never found Moloch any annoying, ring wasn't a problem to me. Moloch is rare enemy, plus replacement of rare Arch-Vile. Untill you face actual Arch-Vile in doom 2, you would already have BFG9000 anyway. If anything, I'd say Moloch was quite balanced with ring.

Just like Arch-Vile in 1994 year, when mouse never was used to aim with, arch-vile was deadly enemy that you should not ever fight in open area, that often to be more deadly and irritating than cyberdemon, so does Moloch is. Ring is easy getting avoided by getting behind corner, that is one of those enemies that you should fight tactically, not just rush mindlessly. if you prefer action gameplay, your best bet to get overpowered weapons. If you have crappy guns and there is still moloch, hide and keep shoting him then hide again, within 6 seconds of fire of same weak SMG he will fall anyway if you aim well. If he gets spawned and it's open area with no corners to hide, then you gotta use save and load often and eventually beat him, you could avoid his most powerful attack this way, after all the doom games supposed to be challenging and you were supposed to use save and load ALL the times back in time. If you getting own'd anyway, well you shouldn't choose the difficult difficulty then and play on easy.

Again, remove something is merely a cheap way to solve a problem, that won't "balance" it either, but just make it easy for nawbs. In order to achieve "perfect balance", you would need to remove completely everything, leaving the only main hero with pistol, and some npc with same speed, and same pistol as the player, but that won't be fun anymore...
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:19 pm

Oh? And I suppose this also counts for maps which map makers just happen to force someone out in the open with little to no cover?

We balance for times when there is slaughterfests, and times when there aren't. We achieve for around the middle, cover and no cover.

Just because it feels too much bunnyland for you doesn't make it bun buns for others you know. And yes, the game is primarily consisting of newbies playing. Big deal! We balance it to our skills, though you're MORE than welcome to play Nightmare skill level.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:24 pm

MaxRideWizardLord wrote:
Major Cooke wrote:
Excuse me, but who are you to say balance isn't an excuse? You don't get massive weapons just at the start of map one you know.

It's annoying as hell, and makes the game very agitating to play whenever encountering a moloch. And for the record, you could fly and then land, when a ring would explode around you.

The balance is merely subjective judgement, I never found Moloch any annoying, ring wasn't a problem to me. Moloch is rare enemy, plus replacement of rare Arch-Vile. Untill you face actual Arch-Vile in doom 2, you would already have BFG9000 anyway. If anything, I'd say Moloch was quite balanced with ring.

Just like Arch-Vile in 1994 year, when mouse never was used to aim with, arch-vile was deadly enemy that you should not ever fight in open area, that often to be more deadly and irritating than cyberdemon, so does Moloch is. Ring is easy getting avoided by getting behind corner, that is one of those enemies that you should fight tactically, not just rush mindlessly. if you prefer action gameplay, your best bet to get overpowered weapons. If you have crappy guns and there is still moloch, hide and keep shoting him then hide again, within 6 seconds of fire of same weak SMG he will fall anyway if you aim well. If he gets spawned and it's open area with no corners to hide, then you gotta use save and load often and eventually beat him, you could avoid his most powerful attack this way, after all the doom games supposed to be challenging and you were supposed to use save and load ALL the times back in time. If you getting own'd anyway, well you shouldn't choose the difficult difficulty then and play on easy.

Again, remove something is merely a cheap way to solve a problem, that won't "balance" it either, but just make it easy for nawbs. In order to achieve "perfect balance", you would need to remove completely everything, leaving the only main hero with pistol, and some npc with same speed, and same pistol as the player, but that won't be fun anymore...

I have come back from the grave to say, you shouldn't have to spam reloads of the game to beat a damn arch-vile class enemy, for fucks sake the Arch-Vile himself is a fucking pansy who goes down in 3-4 SSG blasts or you just whip the RLauncher out and waste his butt, the moloch was bulllshiiiiiit with that damn ring of fire move good riddance to that shit! Do you realize what a nightmare that Plutonia Map with the arch-vile maze is thanks to him? HORRIBLE...you can bitch all you want about this and that but I for one am glad his bs instakill shit is gone, not many monsters in AOED have that and the ones that do...are usually bosses..
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:24 pm

I rest my case.

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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:30 pm

Major Cooke wrote:
Oh? And I suppose this also counts for maps which map makers just happen to force someone out in the open with little to no cover?

We balance for times when there is slaughterfests, and times when there aren't. We achieve for around the middle, cover and no cover.

Just because it feels too much bunnyland for you doesn't make it bun buns for others you know.

If the maps are horrible balanced, they are horrible balanced regardless if it is used aeod or not.

If there is slaughterfest, that means you already have overpowered weapons to dead with even more deadlier enemies than pitiful moloch. Maps that implies there will be lots of arcvhiles around or archviles in open area, usually have BFG9000 before facing them.

I only mention "avoid by jumping" because it clearly works as an exploit which makes it almost effortless way to make it do really low damage. It's still easy to dodge by just cover around the corner, or even by runing away from it once he fires that. That was an definitelly an awesome attack that deserves it's attention for a player to try to avoid it not just WASD.

Oh also, there lots of chaingunners around, especially in non-official by map makers that tend to use LOTS of themm everywhere, and chaingunners are tend to be hitscan, means to possible way to dodge them, and there been lots of chaingunners in maps whose makers decide to not add corners at all, implies you can't dodge. And as far I experienced, the AEOD's replacement for chaingunners are FAR more deadlier than original doom 2 ones. I guess we should remove all their chainguns, miniguns and magic attacks as well...
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PostSubject: Re: Please balance the Moloch!   Today at 2:16 pm

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Please balance the Moloch!
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