AEons of Death

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 "Going Down" Talkthrough

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FistMarine
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:32 pm

Hmm OK but I couldn't always hear what you were saying, so maybe I missed the part where you told DBT to keep reloading. But yeah I understood that you wanted DBT to roll 6.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:58 pm

I uploaded this a few days ago. I totally forgot to put it here until Cooke mentioned it!


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DBT AKA "Jesus the pimp" - Major Cooke
"02:37 p.m. - DBThanatos runs around like a little girl"
"Because now, all you see in AEoD was either ripped, processed and/or coded by the AEoD team (or direct contributions FOR AEoD). It might be a ripfest, but is OUR ripfest." -DBT about AEoD v6
"Seven sixteenths of one inch: That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot." - maddox
"What I talk about is Doom, because in the end, Doom is all that counts." - Stephen King
"In offline gaming we trust" -DBT & MC


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FistMarine
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:52 pm

How did I miss this? I will watch it now and write down my thoughts but this time I will not complain about reloading or anything in particular.

1:07 By the sound of the voice, I already figured out it was no one else than Major Cooke himself. Razz
5:50-6:00 Funny how the jockey was riding on that evil ninja.Laughing
7:00 I see what you did there.Wink  

I also hope you will finish this mapset. I don't want to take as long as finishing Alien Vendetta. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:59 pm

If life gets in the way, life gets in the way. There's no rushing these things.

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"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
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Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:27 am

Yeah but neither DBT wants Going Down to take as long as Alien Vendetta since GD maps are short, while AV maps were pretty long. That's what I meant. Razz

EDIT: DBT can take as much time as he wants to do the talkthrough but I just wouldn't want to hear him saying stuff like "GD took as much as AV" or something along the lines. I don't want to rush him as I am also pretty busy with the college (exams are also getting closer).
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:42 pm

Oh trust me. I wanna be done with this. Only because I want to try a different mapset.

On the bright side, I have a new video and there's another being processed already


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DBT AKA "Jesus the pimp" - Major Cooke
"02:37 p.m. - DBThanatos runs around like a little girl"
"Because now, all you see in AEoD was either ripped, processed and/or coded by the AEoD team (or direct contributions FOR AEoD). It might be a ripfest, but is OUR ripfest." -DBT about AEoD v6
"Seven sixteenths of one inch: That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot." - maddox
"What I talk about is Doom, because in the end, Doom is all that counts." - Stephen King
"In offline gaming we trust" -DBT & MC


Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:19 pm

@1:00: YOU CAN ALWAYS ASK ME.

@4:00: Okay. Wait I thought I already made them indexed. We don't do 16-bit we do indexed palettes.

@4:15: You mean the user1-4 keybinds I implemented into zdoom? *shrugs*

That map, you basically did exit its asshole at the very start. Razz

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"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Here's the latest AEOD video (don't have time right now to watch this or previous one but I figured I might post this Razz ):
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:44 pm

And now the comments!

MAP22:
0:40 See why it's useful to not use the last medkit? Because now it got auto-used and saved you from death. If you had no medkits left, you would have died. Kinda unusual that you entered this map with low health, so you have to be careful. Rolling Eyes
0:45 I would have done the same because in this situation powerups are pretty much needed.
1:05 Heh, you accidentally pressed God mode keys. That's why I recommend to unbind them when you play normally and rebind them later or something. Sorry about nitpicking but even if it's unintended, it can cause unwanted effects during the playthrough. Laughing
5:25 LOL I didn't expect this time to mention me, I even wondered if that was first death of the map since I forgot to keep track of deaths but it's OK, it happens. Surprised
5:45 Oh and by the way, a bit off-topic but of 5 random maps I played today (2 for Duke3D and 3 for Doom), only 2 of them (1 Doom map and 1 Duke map) I was able to survive without dying, in the rest I died ranging between 1 to 4 times but it's not that bad to be honest. I said that if it makes you feel better. For Doom I used Eternity source port (for gameplay closer to vanilla) and for Duke I use EDuke32 source port. I hope that makes you feel better. Razz
7:20 Maybe you should try to escape from traps like these, you know when monsters appear, just go back (step back a little) and fight them from there instead of in same room as them, so you will not be caught UNLESS the mapper forces you to fight in same room by closing doors behind you. Just a tip for surviving easier. Smile
7:35 Well actually it worked much better than I thought.
8:55 I would have done the same because when I use dice and not get the desired effect, I feel like I wasted them for nothing. At least if they would give me a less useful effect, much better than a useless effect or negative effect.
9:16 Weird how it says wrong command "Chasecam" because chasecam was actually a command to enable third person view. I don't know why it gives you error when trying to activate third person view.
12:06 Good choice!
13:07 Oh hi Moloch!
13:25 You handled the fight pretty well. Very Happy

MAP23:

0:34 Funny how there were 3 assault captains. I like when sometimes it's the same monster that appears multiple times. Laughing
1:52 I got that one as well. Very Happy
2:25 There were supposed to be ArchViles here but instead you got an av class monster. At least this time it worked in your favor.
4:36 Heh indeed. Laughing But seriously I didn't expect to fail that badly against a Death Wyvern.
4:56 Yes, it's a Spider Mastermind class monster.
5:18 My thoughts exactly (seriously I said that in mind a few secs before you said that).
12:37 Funnily enough I had revenant in my mind right now because I watched other people playing Going Down and I remembered this part with yellow key on this map and had revenants in mind. Also I agree with everything you said about dubbing. I also hate dubbing in some cases but I didn't mind when cartoons or shows were dubbed into my language when I was young. Though I prefer having everything in English.
13:07 Like I said I prefer English but I assume now you are talking about anime, right? Because I agree with you but I would prefer watching English version, so I can understand what they are saying. Razz
15:05 Too bad you wasted a mystic urn for nothing. This time you barely took any damage.
15:18 You got the mystic soul sphere that already gave you FULL health (and maxed out health by 20 points but only works 5 times, to maximum of 300, which you already got from first couple of levels). Like I said, a mystic urn got wasted for nothing.
28:04 I hate that one too.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:52 pm

FistMarine wrote:
9:16 Weird how it says wrong command "Chasecam" because chasecam was actually a command to enable third person view. I don't know why it gives you error when trying to activate third person view.

Well, actually (and these are two most horrible words on Earth), the CCMD for third person view is chase, so it's even more weird that a key got somehow bound to chasecam.

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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:53 pm

Ah yes you are right! It was "chase" command and not "chasecam", looks like I mixed with the full name of the command. My bad.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:39 pm

Actually, it used to be chasecam quite a while back, hence why it shows the error. I guess the alias changed at some point.


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DBT AKA "Jesus the pimp" - Major Cooke
"02:37 p.m. - DBThanatos runs around like a little girl"
"Because now, all you see in AEoD was either ripped, processed and/or coded by the AEoD team (or direct contributions FOR AEoD). It might be a ripfest, but is OUR ripfest." -DBT about AEoD v6
"Seven sixteenths of one inch: That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot." - maddox
"What I talk about is Doom, because in the end, Doom is all that counts." - Stephen King
"In offline gaming we trust" -DBT & MC


Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:35 pm

This was one hell of a satisfying piece of progression. Seriously, made me proud. Very Happy

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:05 am

0:27 Uh oh you started level with low health and already died. But I'm glad the performance is a bit better.
0:52 Smart choice with the drain rune.
3:05 Why reloaded here? You were doing pretty fine. Also hate that mechanical spider that places exploding poison on you (sorry don't know its name).
3:12 It's ok but what was reason on reloading? And it's perfectly understandable for trying to remember stuff when you didn't play in days. I should go back to AEOD but can't because exams keep me busy. Oh yeah 2 exams done this week, unfortunately I failed the first exam, which was at math. Crying or Very sad Such bullshit, I have to do it again this summer. The other one wasn't difficult and next 3 ones aren't going to be hard either, it's only the math that was unfair bullshit. Had to say about my personal life.
3:25 Yeah that's why I hate this mechanical spider. Once his poison hits you, it explodes and deals heavy damage, very hard to dodge in open space. If it weren't for him, you would have survived. And try to not avoid picking up the heart as you did first time (before dying twice) since it gives you 150 HP and you have 350 HP, so that means you can have 500 HP, you get the full benefit of it.
5:55 Oh yeah that reminds me I should finally start playing Blood, it's one of a few 90s FPS I have never played in my life. It's definitely on my to-do list.
6:38 Yeah I remember the name of that boss was something along the lines of Experimental Flying (or Flaming) Leviathan. I remember using linetarget to scan it once.
8:08 Finally you saved! I kept saying "Save now!" because you were going to lose progress if the boss killed you. Sorry for so many nitpicks, I just don't want you to lose progress. You are doing a great job at killing monsters but should save a bit more often. Like once per minute.
9:05 Yep, I guessed it (or was close, depending on how you look at it). That reminds me, maybe there should be a manual for AEOD that lists all monsters, weapons, items, etc. Of course not spoiling the secret stuff of the mod.
10:30 Funnily enough, I've got this weapon a lot of times since V5.
16:10 I wonder how the next 6 maps are gonna be.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:23 pm

@FistMarine: Dont worry. I enjoy the nitpicking Razz

And dont worry. Next maps are coming this way really really soon! Very Happy


_________________

DBT AKA "Jesus the pimp" - Major Cooke
"02:37 p.m. - DBThanatos runs around like a little girl"
"Because now, all you see in AEoD was either ripped, processed and/or coded by the AEoD team (or direct contributions FOR AEoD). It might be a ripfest, but is OUR ripfest." -DBT about AEoD v6
"Seven sixteenths of one inch: That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot." - maddox
"What I talk about is Doom, because in the end, Doom is all that counts." - Stephen King
"In offline gaming we trust" -DBT & MC


Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:30 pm

Nice ringtone. Razz

Favorite fruit? Well, if bananas didn't constipate, that'd be it but they do. They really make you feel like you are what you eat. Constipation. Buttfucking bananas...

So I'mma go with apples.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:42 pm

Bananas constipate? Holy crap. I had no idea.

I love mangos. Damn mangos. They're the shit



_________________

DBT AKA "Jesus the pimp" - Major Cooke
"02:37 p.m. - DBThanatos runs around like a little girl"
"Because now, all you see in AEoD was either ripped, processed and/or coded by the AEoD team (or direct contributions FOR AEoD). It might be a ripfest, but is OUR ripfest." -DBT about AEoD v6
"Seven sixteenths of one inch: That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot." - maddox
"What I talk about is Doom, because in the end, Doom is all that counts." - Stephen King
"In offline gaming we trust" -DBT & MC


Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:39 pm

DBT, that's nice to know! Very Happy Now for the comments:

0:38 Already heard a Moloch. Yeah I have to point this every time.
0:56 To me it seems like today is the day of Quake 2 monsters.
1:00 I think I know what the hell is that. It's probably a Commander Keen replacement.
1:30 Or maybe a Dehacked stuff like you said.
2:30 I have no idea how to pronounce that weapon's name, so I don't know if you said it right. Also I agree about railgun's sound.
3:08 I also like little details like these.
4:06 I don't know why but this death made me laugh a bit. You continue to talk about stuff, die and not say anything about what happened. Same for previous death. Though I must admit this blue mage likes to troll the player with Bloodscourge sometimes, so that was kind of unexpected.
6:45 I want to say once again it's these kind of little details that make levels great.
7:10 I already noticed you were close to morph a few minutes ago because I have been wondering when you will morph next time.
7:43 That's because it's from Hexen and most monsters from that game have a freeze death. It would be interesting if monsters from AEOD can have freeze death states added in. For example I know over at ZDoom forums that some people created ice death sprites for Heretic monsters as well.
9:00 Some maps are made to not display certain areas on automap, even if you have gotten the computer area map.
12:44 Uh oh, the Moloch.
13:15 You got lucky at killing the Moloch in first try. But can you handle the Phoenix just as good?
13:25 Oh you also handled the Phoenix pretty well and did the friendly bug upon resurrection. Sorry if I underestimated you.
15:30 Looking forward to the next maps!

EDIT: Just as I was watching the video and was about to comment, you already posted a new video! Very Happy Well here are the comments for map 26:

0:10 With a map name "Insanity", you already know what to expect. Razz
2:27 So far so good but you didn't get the medkit. Don't say I didn't warn you if you are going to die and have no medkits left.
3:04 You didn't die so far, which is good.
3:10 And you just increased the gamma.
4:13 Told ya that not picking up the medkit earlier is gonna cost you. Razz
4:44 It's not entirely pointless, at least you are going to get your health back after you morph back into a human. That is if you are low on health like at this moment.
7:21 Personally I think Hexen 2 (and Heretic 2 as well) should have been released on the Doom engine instead of Quake engine. I also remember reading somewhere that the third game in the series was going to be called Hecatomb and if it was going to be made, I wish it was made on Doom engine. I really wish that. I didn't like Heretic 2 and Hexen 2 that much.
11:34 Lol at that part. Really interesting effect.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:10 pm

DBThanatos wrote:
Bananas constipate? Holy crap. I had no idea.

They are PURE PROTEIN!!! On the other hand, if it feels like a water park, bananas'll get ya normal again.

@6:45 - Ah screw you, that was FUNNY!

Most insane nightmare: Being chased off a cliff by a train, then waking up on impact with the momentum of the dream thrusting me straight up into the air by about a foot.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:00 pm


_________________

DBT AKA "Jesus the pimp" - Major Cooke
"02:37 p.m. - DBThanatos runs around like a little girl"
"Because now, all you see in AEoD was either ripped, processed and/or coded by the AEoD team (or direct contributions FOR AEoD). It might be a ripfest, but is OUR ripfest." -DBT about AEoD v6
"Seven sixteenths of one inch: That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot." - maddox
"What I talk about is Doom, because in the end, Doom is all that counts." - Stephen King
"In offline gaming we trust" -DBT & MC


Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:58 pm

@2:01 - This is for Michaelis: Now you know why I hate health interpolation.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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http://majorcooke.deviantart.com
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:54 pm

0:30 Oh boy a lot of monsters. And I also heard a Moloch...
0:35 Yes! Finally Demon Morph at the right time! Very Happy
1:13 It was definitely worth it. So many monsters killed. I'm glad this demon morph happened at the EXACT moment you needed it.
1:30 Maybe you should have waited a little more until you got the armor.
1:50 Got completely raped by the Moloch. How did he survive earlier? Lucky bastard. Razz
1:58 You died because of Moloch's insta-kill attacks, this is the reason why I hate this monster so much. As you can see, 200 health and 400 armor, DEAD in 1 second! Now you will know how I feel whenever a Moloch gets spawned in a map. Oh and I think you are referring to health quickly changing like it does in Heretic and Hexen, during that time it was still going down and it stopped to 120 because you loaded game.
2:04 I would say it was a cheap death or bad luck or something. Because this kind of death by Moloch is pretty much 75% of my deaths in AEOD as well. No I'm not kidding.
2:51 That's why you should always check powerups before leaving the level. In this case, I don't think it was necessary because you already had a lot of health, ammo, etc.
3:00 Yeah, see what I'm talking about? Moloch pretty much ruins it. Of course you should always focus on him but sometimes he can appear out of nowhere and instantly kill you, when you least expect it.
3:50 Uh I don't think it was a wise choice to save game with low health. At least you survived the Moloch attack this time, heh.
4:40 Finally got rid of this fucker. Laughing
7:40 My thoughts exactly. I personally think Hexen 2 (or rather the original name Hecatomb) should have been made on Doom engine but I think it would have been a bit too late in 1996-1997 to release a Doom engine game because it would be considered outdated compared to other games being released at that time. Take a look at Strife for example. It came out few months after Duke Nukem 3D and a month before Quake. That's why it was forgotten by most people.
12:12 I agree about bosses, I would also like them to be hard and challenging. I wouldn't want them to be either too hard to too easy.
12:30 Yeah but here is a problem about that: There were just 2 barons at end of Doom E1 because they couldn't just throw you a Cyberdemon in the first episode, it has to be a simple fight. Though on UV you've also got specters to deal with.
12:35 Wrong. There was no BFG in first episode of Doom, neither the plasma gun. I think the BFG wasn't even available in second episode as well. As a kid, I only had the shareware version of first Doom game, so I couldn't get access to Plasma Gun or BFG even with IDKFA cheat. But who needs those? You can just use your Rocket Launcher and the Barons will be dead in a few seconds, that if you conserved some rockets from previous levels. Just be careful with the specters to not get in your face, unless you are playing at a lower difficulty.
13:00 It's a shame this time you tried to use powerups but there was no need for them, so they go to waste. You could have used earlier the Pentagram of Protection instead of Force Cube.
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:20 pm

Here's a little somthing Razz


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Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:20 pm

Waaaaait for iiiiiit~! WAAAAAAIIIIT FOOOOO-

1:30 - "ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!?" -- There we go~!
1:36 - Nice shotgun jump! Very Happy
13:05 - Yeah you designed a capacity for how much damage he can take in one turn.
14:16 - Nihilanth. You forgot the H. http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Nihilanth

And then the game died.

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PostSubject: Re: "Going Down" Talkthrough   Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:17 pm

0:16 LOL, 1141 monsters! I can't imagine what's going to happen in this video. Wish you all the best to deal with these monsters. Also maps that have 1000+ monsters are pretty much unplayable with AEOD on my laptop. Neutral
0:28 Finally you decided to pick up medkits! Usually you miss them for some reason. And yeah I admit, I like to collect every single important thing, I don't like missing things.
0:47 It was to be expected. You were just running around to see what happens. Nothing wrong with that I guess.
1:29 No way! I just heard DBT talking. But hey, it's going to be interesting seeing DBT VS DBT! Who will win? Razz Also at least this is my chance to see how to beat DBT because I will admit it right here and right now: I could NEVER beat DBT myself without cheats! Yes I said it. It's the only boss in the entire mod I could never beat but it's pretty much to be expected.
2:20 I know the feeling. I think I would have been also shocked here. Shocked
3:08 Uh you should have probably made a backup save, just in case you wanted to go back. Also NEVER EVER use a single save slot! This is exactly why you should use multiple saves. In the unluckiest case of meeting DBT (like in this video), if I can't beat him (or you, heh), I can just the save of the end of previous level and when I start the level again, I get a new set of monsters. Otherwise the only option I see now is to use the previous level save (which is autosaved at beginning of level, meaning you have to redo the level) or to try to fight DBT directly and hope to beat him.
7:00 Definitely.
14:04 Good thing you reloaded because earlier you activated pentagram of protection, THEN you got Demon Morph, so you wasted a pentagram for nothing. Also interesting you couldn't kill yourself ( Razz ) with demon morph. You need something stronger. If I'm not mistaken, a couple of God Hand shots can kill you...oops I mean him. Razz
14:46 Haha, he heard you talking and hit you. You basically read your own mind. So damn confusing when you are fighting yourself. Laughing
15:13 I think he reflected your shot.
20:43 Ear rape sound.
23:28 Damn, so close. Also you should save your game more often, so you don't have to go through these fights ever again.
28:55 Wait, what happened? Also I'm disappointed you couldn't kill DBT. I really wanted to see if you can kill him because I could never kill him either. Neutral
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