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 Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed

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DBThanatos
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PostSubject: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:47 pm

Okay, so this is to get ideas since I have plans, yet lack of specifics.

As you might know, I released my Q4LFMDE mod, which was a "port" of quake 4 monsters and weapons to Doom, in a more fast paced style gameplay. I am yet to release the 1.05 patch which will address balance issues and also the addon pack for brightmaps.

However, Im planning a v2 of this mod, which will drop out some ideas and bring others on board.

Most notably, this version will work in the latest GZDoom SVN, which means newer features. Im not sure if Im gonna add Decorate++ for it, but at least, it will use regular DECORATE with all the new stuff.

This means, Im gonna drop MP support altogether. It was really fun to add a working MP portion, yet, I really want to focus in my forte: SP. Besides, given what I have in mind, it might bloat and complicate things a bit too much.

In regards to SP, what I want to do is add a bunch of new firemodes for the same weapons. At the same time, I shall be adding the new firemodes to the existing monsters. More of that later.

Now, as cooke kindly informed me, ZDoom recently added the ability to have even a tertiary fire + separate zoom state. If that´s the case, the plans only grow bigger.

Now, here´s what I have so far

Weapons can be "upgraded" several times in a non linear way. AKA, a weapon will have up to 3 firemodes, and they can be added in any order.

An example would be the Dark Matter Gun, where, you can pick it up the first time, and it will give you the regular DMG shooting mode. But say you found upgrade 2, which will enable secondary fire.

But you can also skip upgrade 2 if you find upgrade 3, which will give you your already owned primary fire plus a tertiary fire. Im thinking of displaying in the HUD, per weapon selected which firemodes are enabled, so that the player doesnt have to be remembering "which was it? primary, secondary or tertiary?"

I thought of making it linear, one upgrade item that will grant secondary fire first. Picked up again? tertiary fire. Another one? damage increased. But that I think, makes it less interesting. However, by making it randomish, then you can get quite a lot of different combinations in a single game.

Now, the problem is figuring out what to do for each fire mode. There's 3 upgrades per weapon, 2 that will add a new firemode, and a 3rd that just modifies damage for the most part

Gauntlet
Primary. Regular gauntlet attack
Secondary. NY (Nothing Yet)
Tertiary. NY
ExtraUpgrade. Extra Damage

Machinegun
Primary. Regular fire
Secondary. NY
Tertiary. NY
ExtraUpgrade. Extra Damage, fast zoomed attack

Shotgun
Primary. Regular fire
Secondary. NY
Tertiary. NY
ExtraUpgrade. Extra Damage

HyperBlaster
Primary. Regular fire
Secondary. Charged shot (ala hard reset)
Tertiary. NY
ExtraUpgrade. Bouncing projectiles

GrenadeLauncher
Primary. Regular
Secondary. Gravity grenades (ala hard reset)
Tertiary. NY
Extra Upgrade. Extra damage

Nailgun

Primary. Regular
Secondary. Allows zoomed/seekers
Tertiary. NY
Extra Upgrade. Makes nails rippers

Rocket Launcher
Primary. Regular
Secondary. NY
Tertiary. NY
Extra Upgrade. Damage, reduced RJ damage

Railgun
Primary. Regular
Secondary. NY
Tertiary. NY
Extra Upgrade. Damage

Lightning gun
Primary. Regular
Secondary. Electric grenade/mortar (ala hard reset)
Tertiary.
Extra Upgrade. Damage/Bolt

DarkMatterGun
Primary. Regular
Secondary. DarkMatterBeam (ala makron)
Tertiary. NY
Extra Upgrade. Damage.


So, as you can see, a lot of stuff is missing still. Mostly because I havent got many ideas. I mean, how different can I make the machinegun new fire modes? Also, I want to avoid mixing ammo, so machinegun firemodes should only use bullets and so on for each weapon.

Sorry for the shitty format here, I'm posting this on the phone rather than in a pc

So, let me know what crazy ideas you might have for this
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Major Cooke
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PostSubject: Re: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:38 pm

Believe me: Decorate++ will be your saving grace if you want to have a tiny increase in performance. With AEoD, imagine the drastic rise of performance if we were to abuse the ever living fuck out of it.

I'll think of a couple things soon and post em up.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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Michaelis
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PostSubject: Re: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:17 pm

Ideas:

Gauntlet Secondary: Heavy hit that sends monster flying backwards and taking damage from collision, like +BLASTED.
Machinegun Secondary: Naga-like grappling hook.
Shotgun Secondary: explosive shells. Deal less damage on bleeding monsters (there are a majority of them), but deals much more damage with aoe when hits walls or bloodless monsters. Very interesting style that I encountered in that ancient shitty randomizer Alandoguns, which was actually a bug there. You intend not to hit monsters, but to miss them just a bit, and the are blown away by the aoe much more than if you just fire a regular shell at them. And, of course, it just slaughters bloodless monsters.
Shotgun Upgrade: bigger clip or instant reload.
Hyperblaster Tertiary: "Splittergun". Fires rarely, on impact with enemy shoots out two more, to the left and to the right, from its body. These continue to split. Split projectiles are considered belonging to the monster and can hurt player, so it's not "fire and forget". Tricky to use, wonderful against hordes. See Crimsonland.
Grenade Launcher Tertiary: Cluster grenades.
Grenade Launcher Quaternary: Flashing/neural/whatever grenades. On explosion make monsters in radius flee for a few seconds.
Nailgun Tertiary: EMP nails that deal damage and pain over time.
Rocket Launcher Secondary: HE rocket that spends multiple rockets for one shot.
Rocket Launcher Tertiary: Volley of slower homing rockets.
Railgun Secondary: explosive not ripping rail. You know how much I love Howitzer, plz make :3
Railgun Upgrade: rate of fire.
Lightning Gun Tertiary: chain lightning. Either a ball lightning that seeks for another target after ripping into one; or anything really.
Lightning Gun Upgrade: ammo economizer. Since this weapon uses energy which is continuous rather than discrete (like bullets), it's totally possible to explain that improved tech allows your Android phone your Thunderbolt can last 25% longer.
Dark Matter Tertiary: multiple Dark Matter Grenades (ala Makron)
Dark Matter Upgrade: rate of fire. It's usual for BFG to take a fuckton of time so it's critical for them to fire faster.

Feel free to take from 0 to all of them Smile

_________________
"It was like getting something in the daylight that what you see in the night light." -- Thierry Guetta
"There were things from everywhere else." -- Blood Zero Hell
"Wherever you are, I give you this song." -- DBThanatos -- Blessing in Disguise


Last edited by Michaelis on Mon May 02, 2016 1:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:37 pm

Major Cooke wrote:
Believe me: Decorate++ will be your saving grace if you want to have a tiny increase in performance. With AEoD, imagine the drastic rise of performance if we were to abuse the ever living fuck out of it.

I'll think of a couple things soon and post em up.

Well, regular Q4LFMDE brought me back to modding. V2 could be the perfect practice to start using D++ and eventually bring back that practice into the main field: AEoD

Now, I checked the WIKI article about the states, where it mentions the anonymous functions, but I dont quite get how big can it get. Since you have experience with this system already, can you tell me if this is doable and how?

Since the weapons will have up to 3 firemodes, I need it to in the ready state check this, assuming upgrade inventory item for altfire is called "upgrade2" and "upgrade3" for tertiary:

1. If weapon doesnt have any upgrades, only allow primary fire.
2. If weapon has upgrade for 2nd fire, allow fire+alt fire
3. If weapon has upgrade for 2nd and 3rd, allow for fire+alt+3rd
4, If weapon has upgrade for 3rd, allow only primary+3rd
(there is no situation where there is 2nd and 3rd but no primary fire)

This can be done in regular decorate, but it means tons of states and jumps. Can this be done easier in D++?


Michaelis: Im gonna reply in the quote because it's easier
Michaelis wrote:
Ideas:

Gauntlet Secondary: Heavy hit that sends monster flying backwards and taking damage from collision, like +BLASTED.
Okay, quite defensive weapon. I like this idea. But do you have specifics on how can it be achieved?

Machinegun Secondary: Naga-like grappling hook.
A grappling hook that pulls enemies or pulls me towards stuff like the old Quake hook? Anyway, Im not sure how useful either would be

Shotgun Secondary: explosive shells. Deal less damage on bleeding monsters (there are a majority of them), but deals much more damage with aoe when hits walls or bloodless monsters. Very interesting style that I encountered in that ancient shitty randomizer Alandoguns, which was actually a bug there. You intend not to hit monsters, but to miss them just a bit, and the are blown away by the aoe much more than if you just fire a regular shell at them. And, of course, it just slaughters bloodless monsters.
The idea is interesting, but it's a little not-straight-forward. And making it overpowered agains one type of monster, especially non bleeding mosters means broken balance against almost all bosses, since they all are bloodless

Shotgun Upgrade: bigger clip or instant reload.
I was thinking something like "allow 3 quick shots by tapping" before it pumps again, since there's no clips/magazines at all in this mod.

Hyperblaster Tertiary: "Splittergun". Fires rarely, on impact with enemy shoots out two more, to the left and to the right, from its body. These continue to split. Split projectiles are considered belonging to the monster and can hurt player, so it's not "fire and forget". Tricky to use, wonderful against hordes.
Well, that's quite an interesting idea. But perhaps it can only split twice or thrice? otherwise one shot could split so many times that it would get insane.


Grenade Launcher Tertiary: Cluster grenades.
Cluster means that it spawns little grenades on explosion?

Grenade Launcher Quaternary: Flashing/neural/whatever grenades. On explosion make monsters in radius flee for a few seconds.
This is an interesting idea indeed! I have to decide between this and the above, since there will only be 3 firemodes per weapon

Nailgun Tertiary: EMP nails that deal damage and pain over time.
Like poison projectiles? Could be, but I would need to do something like the HL2 flechettes of the tripod thingy, they stick, so you know they're affecting the target. I guess also like the blood flaregun.

Rocket Launcher Secondary: HE rocket that spends multiple rockets for one shot.
Could be, although that seems not too interesting.

Rocket Launcher Tertiary: Volley of slower homing rockets.
Im lost at the volley part. You mean a bunch of rockets shot at the same time?

Railgun Secondary: explosive not ripping rail. You know how much I love Howitzer, plz make :3
HELL YES

Railgun Upgrade: rate of fire.
I think I will keep the damage, since it worked great in v1 of the mod. When you have the basic railgun, it works nicely, needs a couple shots to kill a caco. Once upgraded, it feels!

Lightning Gun Tertiary: chain lightning. Either a ball lightning that seeks for another target after ripping into one; or anything really.
Like the one in AEoD... of that electric weapon I cant remember the name Razz

Lightning Gun Upgrade: ammo economizer. Since this weapon uses energy which is continuous rather than discrete (like bullets), it's totally possible to explain that improved tech allows your Android phone your Thunderbolt can last 25% longer.
I will keep this one in mind. I want to see how much would it mess the code and if it should affect the other firemodes

Dark Matter Tertiary: multiple Dark Matter Grenades (ala Makron)
Could be, but the problem is that it would have to shoot quite a few to be worth the ammo used, considering it's kinda rare. I was thinking of making the beam like "hold to keep using until you deplete 1 dark matter core". I suppose the same could be done for this, but it would be a stream of greandes.

Dark Matter Upgrade: rate of fire. It's usual for BFG to take a fuckton of time so it's critical for them to fire faster.
That sounds great indeed!

Feel free to take from 0 to all of them Smile
Will indeed! Thanks!

_________________

DBT AKA "Jesus the pimp" - Major Cooke
"02:37 p.m. - DBThanatos runs around like a little girl"
"Because now, all you see in AEoD was either ripped, processed and/or coded by the AEoD team (or direct contributions FOR AEoD). It might be a ripfest, but is OUR ripfest." -DBT about AEoD v6
"Seven sixteenths of one inch: That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot." - maddox
"What I talk about is Doom, because in the end, Doom is all that counts." - Stephen King
"In offline gaming we trust" -DBT & MC


Spoiler:
 
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Michaelis
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PostSubject: Re: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:28 am

An easier way to do upgrade-vs-ready checking would be to always have A_WeaponReady check for all firemodes, and then for firemodes themselves to go back to ready if they aren't applicable yet, maybe printing a message "Secondary Not Available Yet!".


Gauntlet Secondary, heavy blow: Theoretically, could go with spawning a small-radius-high-force invisible Disc of Repulsion effect right under target's feet.

Machinegun Secondary, grappling hook: The one that pulls enemies. Could work if there's many strong monsters behind the corner and you want to deal with them one by one. And yes, like you stated in your opening post, it's hard to think up a good altfire for a machinegun!

Machinegun Tertiary: What about akimbo machineguns that fire to the left and to the right of the crosshair, quite imprecisely? A bit like Blood Tommygun's altfire. Close-quarter only, expectedly eats ammo at double rate. Plus, takes a few more tics to raise second machinegun, just for firing, and to lower it too. I haven't seen a rapid-fire scatter hitscan weapon in Q4 yet, and missionpack of Q3, "Team Arena", added exactly this kind of weapon (Chaingun), the "lead shower", which shows that id thinks that a normal Machinegun is not enough, people need a Chaingun, too.

Shotgun Secondary, explosive shells: Aren't bosses protected from radius damage? This would counter the nature of these shells. Nowadays, they can be protected partially with RadiusDamageFactor.

Hyperblaster Tertiary, splittergun: hahaha, my link failed to parse because I used a wrong tag. Lol. Fixed now.
Yes, limiting split count is a good way to make it less crazy. If split levels are different actors, they can have different appearance. But back in Crimsonland we had to fire it once and then pray not to catch our own bullet!

Grenade Launcher Tertiary, cluster grenade: yes, like in AEoD.

Nailgun Tertiary, EMP nails: yes, like poison, but affecting Strogg.

Rocket Launcher Tertiary, volley: yes, a short burst of rockets that fire one after one. Like AEoD MP5 alt-fire.

Lightning Gun Tertiary, chain lightning: yes, like AEoD Proteus Dynamo, but forced to seek for another target right after hitting this one, not staying until first target dies.

Dark Matter Gun Tertiary: or maybe a "black hole" shot, like AEoD DMG or QSG.

_________________
"It was like getting something in the daylight that what you see in the night light." -- Thierry Guetta
"There were things from everywhere else." -- Blood Zero Hell
"Wherever you are, I give you this song." -- DBThanatos -- Blessing in Disguise
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PostSubject: Re: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:56 pm

Well, the mod will no longer be called "Quake 4 Lightning Fast Mod Doom Edition". Instead I think it will be called "Quake 4 - Reset". This is of course because of the heavy influence of Hard Reset into this mod, but also because its sort of a reset of the original q4 weapon concept.

This is what I have so far.

Code:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14BH9RHoKNDZb6znRwkLfxsBAeGAGKJKCkBUIfQo9nYI/edit?usp=sharing

So, as you can see, tertiary fire is focusing more into a "defensive" type of fire mode. In UpgradeX, where it says "somethin 1 2" means that it will affect primary and secondary. Any extra suggestions?

_________________

DBT AKA "Jesus the pimp" - Major Cooke
"02:37 p.m. - DBThanatos runs around like a little girl"
"Because now, all you see in AEoD was either ripped, processed and/or coded by the AEoD team (or direct contributions FOR AEoD). It might be a ripfest, but is OUR ripfest." -DBT about AEoD v6
"Seven sixteenths of one inch: That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot." - maddox
"What I talk about is Doom, because in the end, Doom is all that counts." - Stephen King
"In offline gaming we trust" -DBT & MC


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Major Cooke
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PostSubject: Re: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:49 am

The good news is, our forums no longer put our links into spam pages.

Also the many different bright colors make my eyes bleed.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:30 pm

So RL Secondary is like Concussion Missile Launcher of AEoD, dealing most damage with direct hit, little AoE? Love this weapon. Because it's halfway to Howitzer Very Happy Just kidding. Love it because it's a projectile that's fast enough to reach moving target in the ever-changing battlefield, and at the same time isn't as strict with aiming as actual railguns and howitzer.

Also, I haven't seen Smartgun from Hard Reset really, but what about making it a Railgun Tertiary? Slugs are kinda expensive, so people surely won't spam it; this would offset cheapness of noclipping seeking "fire-and-forget" thing.

_________________
"It was like getting something in the daylight that what you see in the night light." -- Thierry Guetta
"There were things from everywhere else." -- Blood Zero Hell
"Wherever you are, I give you this song." -- DBThanatos -- Blessing in Disguise
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Michaelis
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PostSubject: Re: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Mon May 02, 2016 1:28 pm

Hey, now that we have seen Doom4, what about tertiary for RL being detonation of all primary missiles currently in flight?
Or, if you're confident with current RL firemodes, this can also be applied to Grenade Launcher and its primary grenades. Cluster grenades are too common Razz

Another Doom4-based idea: Lightning Gun mode that deals less damage, but bounces and homes onto nearest target if hits architecture. Or even less damage, but AoE on architecture.

_________________
"It was like getting something in the daylight that what you see in the night light." -- Thierry Guetta
"There were things from everywhere else." -- Blood Zero Hell
"Wherever you are, I give you this song." -- DBThanatos -- Blessing in Disguise
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Major Cooke
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PostSubject: Re: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Tue May 03, 2016 12:50 am

Michaelis wrote:
Another Doom4-based idea: Lightning Gun mode that deals less damage, but bounces and homes onto nearest target if hits architecture. Or even less damage, but AoE on architecture.

Check the soul reaper to see how it's done if you need to borrow code from anywhere.

_________________
"well, im not too sure. I mean, we made money, but im not able to wipe my ass with $100 bills yet." - DBThanatos
"And one for Bobo the Space Monkey!" - Postal Dude
"My grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!" - Postal Dude
"Float... They aaaaaall float! And when you're down here with me, fat boy! YOU... float... too!" - Pennywise, the Dancing Clown
"In Offline Gaming We Trust" - DBT & MC
"That truck is fucked." - FPS Russia
Spetsnaz. When the only way to kill a terrorist is with a back-flipping Apache attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Q4LFM brainstorm. HALP needed   Today at 10:46 pm

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