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 Let's talk PolyObjects.

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ShadowTiger
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PostSubject: Let's talk PolyObjects.   Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:41 pm

Not even related to AEoD. Wouldn't have a place in it anyway. Just PolyObjects in general.

So I constructed my own PolyObject door a day or so ago. Worked wonderfully. Didn't make a noise though, as the number assignment for the sound slot is just that - a number. What does that correspond to, exactly, please?

And, what exactly would you say would be the most common source of malfunctions regarding PolyObjects? I recently tried to make a double set of doors to mirror each other on their way into the wall. I actually got an error that one of them wasn't closed. Every line was connected to the vectors, being snapped to the grid. So weird. I have to reproduce that to see what my error was.


Anyone ever try a rotating PolyObject? what does that entail, exactly? They look fun. Knowing me, I'd probably do something really stupid with it, like make a chair spin around and around. Yeah.


Otherwise, describe your own PolyObject experiences. They're a pretty darn versatile tool, so the more info and discussion out there, the better. Smile
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Major Cooke
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk PolyObjects.   Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:59 pm

Never worked with 'em. DBT on the other hand I think has plenty of experience in it to help you out...

I never rely on them, I just make huge-ass slaughter-fest maps and go nuts.
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ShadowTiger
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk PolyObjects.   Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:56 pm

Heh. I know what you mean. Razz I love those too.

That was my original goal. Frantic combat. Serious Sam action.

But then I get meticulous. I need moar detail. My maps seem flat and unenthusiastic. So I add height variations and doodads. .. [/starcraft] .. and then doors, and even details to the doors. Then the interactive stuff comes into play.

And that's all in my mind. I haven't even built a map yet. I just know that it's going to be like that.

So I want to get all the technical detail and learning out of the way before I build, so I won't have to build half of a crappy map and half of a decent map on the same map, and then go back and fix the crappy half to match the better one.
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Major Cooke
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk PolyObjects.   Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:30 pm

I try and get some detail in first and just make sure it's playable, then I have some fun blasting shit around, then I get back to mapping.

Here's a quote from Kaiser, when he made Community is Falling 3:

KAISER wrote:


This is usually how levels are designed, especially for modern games.
The purpose of these stages is to iterate the level step by step and
reduce the time being spent to do major reworks. Nothing is more
frustrating than having to create one half of the level with full
detail, sectoring, lighting, the works, and only to find out that,
gameplay wise, itís not working out and most of the content ends up
being scrapped. Time is pretty much wasted. This is why gameplay comes
first, and then detail last.

The way I typically create levels for Doom (since during D64TC and CIF3)
I would build the levels through the following stages:

* Layout - Nothing fancy, no sector heights, lighting, texturing etc.
Layout is blocked out in editor and major events, areas,
sequences or other highlights are identified and the level
layout and scope is iterated. This stage shouldn't take no
more than one or two days. Bear in mind that the layout is
not set in stone. Don't become married to this layout as some
parts usually gets modified or changed for your gameplay or
whatever.

* Prototype - Sector heights, no texturing, basic thinker placement
(doors, lifts etc). Designer runs through the level to get
the time length to run from start to end and to test out
the flow for combat, traps etc. If using ACS, then basic
scripts are implemented, just so something is there as a
placeholder, again nothing fancy. This shouldn't take up
much time either.

* Gameplay - Any gameplay related things are added (monsters, ammo,
objects used to block paths etc). Scripting should be
polished and be at its full potential. At this point, level
authors should provide the prototype level to others to get
feedback on the gameplay, which can be quickly tweaked,
changed, updated etc without spending too much time.

* Pretty - Texturing, sector work, lighting, detailing, thing details
etc. Go nuts; beautify the shit out of your level.

* Polish - Level is polished, scripting polish, gameplay polished etc.
Address any minor glitches, or texture flaws and whatnot.

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DBThanatos
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk PolyObjects.   Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:59 pm

You wouldnt be able to "spin a chair", since it's impossible to do something like a chair with polyobjects. Basically, as the wiki explains, the polyobjects are by definitions simply infinitely tall walls, so, it's impossible to even make a simple cube on the floor move.

But dont believe they're useless, they're far from that. The most basic use is indeed to make doors, swinging doors, sliding doors, but there are other uses, like, rotating doors, sliding walls + all the types of activations that a line permits (i.e. "player press use", "player pushes", etc) the posibilities are endless.

For example, and that's something I always wanted to do: a dynamic maze, where the walls change constantly position to fuck up the player's orientation.

Now, the wiki article isnt that updated, since now, thanks to the magic of our zdoom developers, the polyobjects are easier to use than ever. Before, you would need to be extremely careful when placing them, since if you messed the calculations of the movements, and the poly ended outside it's subsector, bleeding would occur (visual horrible glitch), and that was common, not counting extremely frustrating. As in the newest svns (cant remember where this was actually implemented) now this limit of the subsector boundaries is gone. So, now you can have them moving almost anywhere without worrying about them bleeding.

Toy with them and get used to their implementation, which, while a bit tedious at first, once you understand it, you're free to do whatever you like with them. Once you've used them, there's no turning back to regular doom doors in maps you're making.

Im guessing you never played Hexen, because that's the game that implemented polyobjs. If you have a chance, get it, it's a nice game (I love it as a matter of fact) and there you'll see several implementations of the polys.
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ShadowTiger
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk PolyObjects.   Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:19 am

Heheh, thank you very much; yes, I'm playing "Serpent Resurrection" right now, a Hexen mod using plenty of PolyObjects. Mostly doors. It even had a Windmill blade spinning perfectly.

By "Infinite Tall," you mean that nothing can pass above the PolyObject's iteration in the world, right? I'm trying to remember if I ever went above or below a spinning blade in a vent or not. Definitely spinning.

Aye, I'm using the latest version of ZDoom. I tend to. I don't think GZDoom is as friendly with PolyObjects as ZDoom is, despite that I'm using the latest versions of both. I tend to gravitate more toward GZDoom in the end; mostly out of habit.


I should open up that Serpent WAD and find out how he's doing everything. He uses so very many of them. It's crazy. I love it. Razz
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DBThanatos
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk PolyObjects.   Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:31 am

ShadowTiger wrote:

By "Infinite Tall," you mean that nothing can pass above the PolyObject's iteration in the world, right? I'm trying to remember if I ever went above or below a spinning blade in a vent or not. Definitely spinning.
That's right, you cant go above nor below the polyobject. Is like a regular wall in the doom map, it limits via lines and vertex a void space inside it, so, it goes all the way up and down. I dont know about this mod you're telling me, but that sounds more like it's made with a 3d model. And if somehow it's a polyobject, Im sure a lot of trickery was needed.
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ShadowTiger
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk PolyObjects.   Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:40 pm

It was moving on the automap! :O A vent fan! In its own isolated area of teh map! Now I really wish I could find it again. @ @.



Okay, so here's a question, please, that I hope the answer is "yes" to.

Do all PolyObjects need to be "blank" inside? Unless it's just a 2-Dimensional solid line, of course.
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DBThanatos
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk PolyObjects.   Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:56 pm

By definition, yes. The polyobject is just like a "pillar" in a map editor. A void space, which is delimited by the walls you'll see in the level.
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